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Pure Raw VS Raw + Elemental


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#1 Nosuke

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 05:11 AM

Objective
- To show the reason why it is hard for high raw weapon to out damage raw + element weapon
- To find the best highest raw damage weapon
- To show that sharpness +1 gives the same bonus as AUL on raw weapons
- To find out if high raw + lower element is better, or lower raw + higher elemental is better
- To show which raw + elemental weapon is better than pure raw weapon
- To show that which armor skill is better on a raw + elemental damage weapon
- To show that it is still possible for high raw to out damage raw + elemental damage
- To show that Raw works better on Monster
- To show situation where elemental would work better
- How to achieve the best raw damage in the game

I have been doing research on MH3P weapon class. And I have discover that pure raw still remains good. However, it is very hard for pure raw to out dps raw + elemental given 2 reasons.

1) Affinity was no longer affected by sharpness damage, therefore a high base raw damage is more important if you want to use affinity as a factor.
2) Most pure raw damage weapons does not as high raw as weapons that gives Raw + Elemental damage.

We will use longsword class weapon examples in this discussion. First we will list out several long sword that has high raw, so that we can find the highest raw weapon to compare. (Shown is the upgrade damage, because when you upgrade a raw + elemental weapon, the elemental damage doesn't upgrade)

Sharpness Modifier
Sharpness modifiers:
Color      Raw     Element
Red        0.50    0.25
Orange     0.75    0.50
Yellow     1.00    0.75
Green      1.05    1.00
Blue       1.20    1.0625
White      1.32    1.125

Note: The affinity damage is calculated base on the Raw damage, not the sharpness damage. Since Affinity was not affected by Sharpness.
(0.25 x base Raw) Not (0.25 [RAW X Sharp])

Which long swords have the best raw?
Spoiler

Surprise? Akantor Long Sword has the best pure RAW damage even with a crap sharpness. Tigrex is good as well but do take note Tigrex white sharpness can be gone easily in several hits even with sharp sword.

You may argue that you can add sharpness +1 with some weapons, however adding AUL (silver rathalos set) to those weapon that cant add sharpness +1 will still make them as effective. This is the reason why I only calculate the base damage of the weapon, not with sharpness +1

Example
AUL vs Sharpness +1 on weapons
Spoiler



See? This is the reason why I only calculate the base damage of the weapon, not with sharpness +1

Now we will take an Elemental Weapon and Calculate the damage, supposedly we are fighting against a creature that is weak to lightning.

So we take all the thunder long sword and compare to see which is the best thunder long sword.

Higher Raw, lower elemental vs lower raw, higher elemental
Spoiler


When considering armor skills for Raw + Elemental, armor skills that adds raw damage is better than armor skills that add pure elemental damage.

I shall show you
Sharpness +1, Elemental Attack Up (1.1), Thunder Attack +2 (1.2)
Sharpness +1, Attack Up Large, Exploiter


Which armor skill work best on raw + elemental?
Spoiler


So what about monster? I will bring some monster data here, we shall see.

EDIT 1: Dobo is added into it as it gives a better example
Spoiler


We have see in this case a high raw would work well on here since dobo take in a high amount of silce. Only fire damage would shines on attacking his horn. But it is not recommended to attack there.

This shows that the monster take in more raw damage than elemental damage most of the time.

EDIT 1: Silver Rathalos is an bad example and has bit edited away.

Let us take a look at agnaktor damage zone
Spoiler

Take the head resistance here. If Agnaktor is covered in snow, all damage is reduces to 0.15. However, agnaktor still take in same amount of fire damage. This shows that a higher element weapon would deal more damage if agnaktor is cover in snow.


So how do we achieve the best raw damage in the game? Since Akantor longsword is the best among all the long sword. We will piece a good armor skill on it.

EDIT 2: Seems that either Full Jhen set or Full Silver Rathalos would work better with Akantor Longsword.

I have come to the end of my Discussion. Conclusion as follows.

Conclusion
- Affinity damage was no longer being affected by sharpness in mhp3rd making it hard to out damage than raw + elemental weapons.
- Some raw + elemental weapon can out damage most pure raw weapons, but there are pure raw weapons that are still better than raw + elemental weapons
- Akantor Long Sword is an example of a pure weapon that can out damage a lot of long sword damage despite having a green sharpness.
- Adding AUL gives about the same bonus as adding sharpness +1 on a raw damage weapon, an example is done on dobo, it only has 4 damage difference.
- Higher raw + lower elemental weapon gives overall better damage than Lower raw + higher elemental weapon, Jinouga long sword is better than gigginox long sword.
- Jinouga long sword is not as good as Akantor long sword without armor skills.
- Alatreon long sword is the only raw + elemental weapon that is better than Akantor long sword without armor skill
- Armor skill that add raw damage is better than armor skill that add elemental damage
- It is still possible for high raw to out damage some raw + elemental in MHp3rd
- Monster usually take in higher raw damage than Elemental Damage, but in some situation where higher elemental would do more damage. Like agnaktor hardened shell mode.
- Giving Akantor longsword a good armor skill would enable it to achieve a good high raw damage in a game. However a few weapons like Jinouga long sword and rathalos long sword can still do more damage than Akantor long sword if you give them the correct armor skills.
- Akantor longsword will still do more damage to monster because they take in more raw damage than elemental, unless akantor longsword bounces back.
If you want to go elemental then it depends on how fast you hit and where you are hitting. High raw is good for those who want to consistently pressure the weak points.

Credits
Violet Kira for monster data guide and weapon list
Holywoochuk for damage formula
Lord Grahf for damage formula
Jask for damage formula clarifications

Edited by Nosuke, 23 February 2011 - 05:00 AM.


#2 Usul

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 05:25 AM

It only makes sense that a specialized/elemental weapon should be out-damaging convenient and generic/pure raw weapons against monsters the elementals are specialized in.

#3 Nosuke

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 05:31 AM

It only makes sense that a specialized/elemental weapon should be out-damaging convenient and generic/pure raw weapons against monsters the elementals are specialized in.


Yes it does, but Akantor long sword out damage raw + element weapons unless it bounces back. This is because monster usually take in more raw than elemental damage.

Edited by Nosuke, 22 February 2011 - 05:32 AM.


#4 A.I.D.

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 05:51 AM

@Nosuke: How did you come up with the DPS of each weapon? I'm also trying to find out which GS is better in terms of dishing out damage to an elementally weak monster and I'm not sure if I'm coming up with the correct numbers.

#5 Usul

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:08 AM

Yes it does, but Akantor long sword out damage raw + element weapons unless it bounces back. This is because monster usually take in more raw than elemental damage.

Well I can imagine so. Red bar directly boosts the damage modifier, right?

#6 Nosuke

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:10 AM

@Nosuke: How did you come up with the DPS of each weapon? I'm also trying to find out which GS is better in terms of dishing out damage to an elementally weak monster and I'm not sure if I'm coming up with the correct numbers.


Simply apply in the sharpness modifier. Always use upgraded damage if you want to compare elemental vs raw

Sharpness modifiers:
Color      Raw     Element
Red        0.50    0.25
Orange     0.75    0.50
Yellow     1.00    0.75
Green      1.05    1.00
Blue       1.20    1.0625
White      1.32    1.125

Take Rathalos Long Sword for example.

225 Raw, 26 Fire (blue sharpness)

damage after sharpness
225 x 1.2 = 270
26 x 1.0625 = 27.625
Total damage done = 270 + 27.625 = 297.625

The decimal damage are drop when you hit the monster, so the fire damage is 27.

As for affinity. Affinity does 25% damage on when trigger. Affinity now on works on the BASE RAW, not the SHARPNESS overall
0.25 x 225 = 56.25
NOT 0.25 x 270

So we add this damage to the sharpness overall damage and we get the damage we deal when affinity is trigger
56.25 + 270 = 326.25 Damage when affinity trigger
Total Damage with fire damage = 353.25

So let's say this weapon has an affinity for 20%, that means 20% chance to trigger critical. So we count in the average of 10 hits.

[353.25 x 2 + 297.625 x 8] / 10

so in 10 hits, 2 hits are critical hits, which does 353.25, while 8 hits are non-critical, which does 297.625

[706.5 + 2381] / 10

Divide this by 10 and we can the average DPS for that weapon. 308.75

Edited by Nosuke, 22 February 2011 - 06:13 AM.


#7 Nosuke

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:12 AM

Well I can imagine so. Red bar directly boosts the damage modifier, right?


from what I have seen from HolyWoodChuck FAQS in MH3P, only the raw modifier is boost. The weapon attack type is the same.

Edited by Nosuke, 22 February 2011 - 06:33 AM.


#8 A.I.D.

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:23 AM

Thanks for the info. I'll get to my number crunching now.

#9 exsea

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:54 AM

yar! crunch those numbers! crunch em!

anyway this is one reason i like gs. i m too lazy to be bothered by so many different elements. one pure raw gs with one setup = gold
lol

#10 Nosuke

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:09 AM

yar! crunch those numbers! crunch em!

anyway this is one reason i like gs. i m too lazy to be bothered by so many different elements. one pure raw gs with one setup = gold
lol


But which pure GS would be the best? I am pretty surprise myself that Akantor long sword is the winner in MHp3rd when I just discover it.

#11 Id0x0

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:09 AM

yar! crunch those numbers! crunch em!

anyway this is one reason i like gs. i m too lazy to be bothered by so many different elements. one pure raw gs with one setup = gold
lol


according to hollywoodchuck attack motion table.. gs charge multiplies elements, charge lvl 3 has 2x element modifier.. and the last combo charge has a 3x element modifier.. IMO it's worth to have elements in GS now days..

#12 Nosuke

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:12 AM

according to hollywoodchuck attack motion table.. gs charge multiplies elements, charge lvl 3 has 2x element modifier.. and the last combo charge has a 3x element modifier.. IMO it's worth to have elements in GS now days..


It is worth to have GS with elemental. But when you consider Armor skill, add Raw Armor skill rather than Elemental Armor Skill. I am pretty search that there is one GS out there that can out DPS most elemental weapon in MHp3rd.

EDIT: I think it would Ukanlos GS with critical draw, but I haven't tested it :rolleyes:

Edited by Nosuke, 22 February 2011 - 07:35 AM.


#13 Usul

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:40 AM

It is worth to have GS with elemental. But when you consider Armor skill, add Raw Armor skill rather than Elemental Armor Skill. I am pretty search that there is one GS out there that can out DPS most elemental weapon in MHp3rd.

EDIT: I think it would Ukanlos GS with critical draw, but I haven't tested it :rolleyes:

I agree. Should the elementals outdamage the raw GS', the damage difference will most likely be miniscule.

#14 exsea

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:43 AM

which gs is the best is highly subjective.

high siegmund (or was it siglende?) = 220 raw 1 slot 5 affinity
diablos = 230 raw +something defense -20% affinity
black tigrex = 230 raw + 2 slot -25 (or was it 30) affinity
alatreon = 190 raw 35 dragon 2 slots

if going for pure raw it would be easy to just use HS GS with an armorset with crit draw, aul and sharpness +1
diablos has the highest raw but has negative affinity which a lot of gs users dont seem to mind.
black tigrex is awesome due to its super long blue and 2 slots, allowing users to focus on different armorskill sets. typically seen used in speedruns due to the lack of need to sharpen the sword every once in a while
alatreon is my personal favorite. why? while most gs's may have more raw, artisan is a bitch to armorskill to get. even if you get artisan, you will most likely not be able to get sharpsword skill together with it. alatreon sacrifices 20 raw which can be fixed by attack up large for both built in sharpsword and artisan. it has 2 slots to boot so it gives the player a high variety of armorskill customizations. i'm also lazy to keep resharpening gs's all the time, alatreon's super long white sharpness is so damn convenient. it even has dragon damage bonus.

thus:

highest raw damage GS = diablos
highest RELIABLE raw damage GS = HS
highest raw damage GS without need for much sharpening and some armorskill options = black Tigrex
most RELIABLE gs in a long run = alatreon

personal opinion = alatreon wins out

#15 Schrade

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 08:24 AM

Isn't this completely ignoring the attack multipliers of the weapon swings you use? The elemental damage seems much more significant once you take them into account because while a certain swing will do 30% of raw attack, the elemental damage is still 100%.

#16 exsea

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 08:28 AM

Isn't this completely ignoring the attack multipliers of the weapon swings you use? The elemental damage seems much more significant once you take them into account because while a certain swing will do 30% of raw attack, the elemental damage is still 100%.


that's more or less MHU

MHP3 certain attacks give more or less elemental damage.

sns attacks that use the shield give 0 elemental damage

#17 Nosuke

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 08:35 AM

Diablos GS
245, -20% Affinity Blue Sharpness
294 /w Sharpness
Negative Affinity Damage = 61.25
Damage /w Negative Affinity = 232.75
Average DPS = 281.75

Akantor GS
265, 45% Affinity, Yellow Sharpness
265 /w Sharpness
Affinity Bonus = 66.25
Damage /w Affinity = 331.25
Average DPS = 294.8125

Of course with armor skill like critical draw, Diablos GS would still be the best, I have yet to find a particular set of armor skill that could make Akantor GS as polish as what diablos GS would offer. Ukanlos theorically have a good damage with AUL, Sharpness +1, Critical Draw, but it has a puny amount of blue sharpness.

Edited by Nosuke, 22 February 2011 - 08:39 AM.


#18 Schrade

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 08:35 AM

By the damage formula FAQ, the attacks that affect the element damage include GS charge, shield bashes and dual sword attacks...

But in order to really compare the damage from one weapon with another properly, I think you would still need to calculate damage for an attack chain with that weapon, including the hit zone for a particular monster for each weapon.

#19 exsea

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 08:40 AM

By the damage formula FAQ, the attacks that affect the element damage include GS charge, shield bashes and dual sword attacks...

But in order to really compare the damage from one weapon with another properly, I think you would still need to calculate damage for an attack chain with that weapon, including the hit zone for a particular monster for each weapon.


that is assuming you can do a full chain on a single particular part consistently

#20 Nosuke

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 08:43 AM

By the damage formula FAQ, the attacks that affect the element damage include GS charge, shield bashes and dual sword attacks...

But in order to really compare the damage from one weapon with another properly, I think you would still need to calculate damage for an attack chain with that weapon, including the hit zone for a particular monster for each weapon.


Elemental hits may be 100% in terms of damage, fast weapons like SnS and DS still benefits from their Elemental attacks.
However, monster usually take in higher raw hits damage on their weak points, as such, having high raw works well on killing monster with their weak point that can be easily access to.

EDIT: I have been thinking about this, silver los may be a bad example being show case. Since using a lower raw + higher elemental weapon would be better in killing silver los consider silver los take in a constant amount elemental damage.

Edited by Nosuke, 22 February 2011 - 08:54 AM.





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